Yes, that was a single event in which the Soviets literally captured several thousand scientists and engineers as part of the war, made them POWs, and put them in GULAGS (labor camps) and forced them to work on science projects. That’s not saving them from justice, that’s literally punishment.
Operation Paperclip, on the other hand, made Nazis into millionaires, rehabilitated their public image, gave many of them fake identities, properties, high paying jobs, and even security details in some case.
In the case of NATO, it took Nazi officers and literally made them NATO officers. No punishments. No POW status. Just a high ranking leadership role in a trans-national nuclear military. The Soviets never did anything even remotely like that.
And then there’s Operation Gladio where NATO, led by literally Nazis, organized Nazi collaborators throughout Europe into militias, armed them, trained them, protected them, recruited for them, and organized them into a large network of terrorists that could be used to fight against the Soviets.
Meanwhile in West Germany, Nazi politicians were being elected in the special government the US put together, while in East Germany not only were Nazi politicians imprisoned or killed, anyone supporting them was also imprisoned.
That you think “both sides are the same” is a serious problem for your reading comprehension, for your media literacy, for your grasp of history, and ultimately for any opinions you have on geopolitics because clearly you don’t know how to defend against propaganda.
They weren’t “made POW’s”. Admittedly, their participation wasn’t voluntary. But, they and their families were kept under rather decent conditions, and were instructed to teach Soviet scientists everything they knew about rocket technology. They were never really allowed to participate in that research however, which ultimately led to lackluster results.
Then, once the Soviets had determined that they could provide no additional information, they and their families were allowed to return to Germany. That doesn’t make them POW’s. They weren’t punished for their roles in the German war effort. They were simply treated as useful sources of information, and then let go.
They were quite literally prisoners of war, kidnapped at gun point during war time by soldiers who invaded Germany. They were managed by the same administrative body that oversaw forced labor. They were POWs by all definitions.
Yes, they were treated decently, because that’s what is generally required to get people to do intellectual labor. The GULAG system generally did treat people decently, much better than the US prison system, that’s for damn sure.
As for being released from the USSR and back to Germany, if they weren’t POWs serving time in a forced labor arrangement, then why couldn’t they go back to Germany until the Soviets released them? Their forced labor was their punishment. The Soviet GULAG system was literally founded on the idea that contributing your labor to society was exactly how you paid your debts to society. They were punished, they served time, and they were released. It’s not like the Soviets brought military butchers back to integrate them into society, nor did they bring strategists and tacticians to integrate into their military structure. They wanted knowledge work, they got knowledge work.
As for the lackluster results, I’m sure you’re familiar with the fact that there was almost zero rocket science happening in the USSR before and during the war. After forcing German scientists to train Soviet scientists, the Soviets developed an exact replica of the V2. I would say that alone demonstrates the success of the program.
But more to the point. They went from zero rocketry to the number two rocket science center in the world. Sure they didn’t beat the Americans to a heavy launcher and the Saturn V became the gold standard. But the Soviets achieved over a dozen milestones before the US did with satellites, manned flights, probes on Venus, etc. If you think going from literally nothing to second place is lackluster, perhaps you have a bias.
They weren’t “prisoners of war”…the war was already over when they were “recruited” at gun-point. They were also civilians, which makes it impossible to call them POW’s unless you are also willing to admit that Russia committed war crimes just by capturing them…
And even if they were active combatants…once the war is over, you’re supposed to let them go…unless they are charged with crimes committed in the act of service. Then they are expected to stand trial for those crimes, where evidence is presented to prove their guilt. That is typically reserved for high ranking officers, or political leaders.
None of that applied to Operation Osoaviakhim. What you are conveniently reframing, is called politically motivated “slave labor”…something the Soviet Union did to even their own citizens, if they refused to cooperate with the State. These people were scientists. None of them committed war crimes. If they had, then they should have stood trial with the rest of them at Nuremberg. But all this happened after those trials were over.
Uh huh? And I was saying that your argument can also be applied to the Russians. That’s how stupid it is.
No, what’s stupid is you thinking that a non-aggression pact before the war is equivalent to saving 10k Nazis from justice after the war.
Buddy, the Russians “saved” even more Nazis than the Americans did, for their research programs after the war.
Yeah, that’s not actually true and I encourage you to bring me evidence of it.
Meanwhile, you can read all about Operation Paperclip and Operation Gladio for the other side.
So please, present evidence.
Ummm, ok…
It was called Operation Osoaviakhim.
Yes, that was a single event in which the Soviets literally captured several thousand scientists and engineers as part of the war, made them POWs, and put them in GULAGS (labor camps) and forced them to work on science projects. That’s not saving them from justice, that’s literally punishment.
Operation Paperclip, on the other hand, made Nazis into millionaires, rehabilitated their public image, gave many of them fake identities, properties, high paying jobs, and even security details in some case.
In the case of NATO, it took Nazi officers and literally made them NATO officers. No punishments. No POW status. Just a high ranking leadership role in a trans-national nuclear military. The Soviets never did anything even remotely like that.
And then there’s Operation Gladio where NATO, led by literally Nazis, organized Nazi collaborators throughout Europe into militias, armed them, trained them, protected them, recruited for them, and organized them into a large network of terrorists that could be used to fight against the Soviets.
Meanwhile in West Germany, Nazi politicians were being elected in the special government the US put together, while in East Germany not only were Nazi politicians imprisoned or killed, anyone supporting them was also imprisoned.
That you think “both sides are the same” is a serious problem for your reading comprehension, for your media literacy, for your grasp of history, and ultimately for any opinions you have on geopolitics because clearly you don’t know how to defend against propaganda.
They weren’t “made POW’s”. Admittedly, their participation wasn’t voluntary. But, they and their families were kept under rather decent conditions, and were instructed to teach Soviet scientists everything they knew about rocket technology. They were never really allowed to participate in that research however, which ultimately led to lackluster results.
Then, once the Soviets had determined that they could provide no additional information, they and their families were allowed to return to Germany. That doesn’t make them POW’s. They weren’t punished for their roles in the German war effort. They were simply treated as useful sources of information, and then let go.
They were quite literally prisoners of war, kidnapped at gun point during war time by soldiers who invaded Germany. They were managed by the same administrative body that oversaw forced labor. They were POWs by all definitions.
Yes, they were treated decently, because that’s what is generally required to get people to do intellectual labor. The GULAG system generally did treat people decently, much better than the US prison system, that’s for damn sure.
As for being released from the USSR and back to Germany, if they weren’t POWs serving time in a forced labor arrangement, then why couldn’t they go back to Germany until the Soviets released them? Their forced labor was their punishment. The Soviet GULAG system was literally founded on the idea that contributing your labor to society was exactly how you paid your debts to society. They were punished, they served time, and they were released. It’s not like the Soviets brought military butchers back to integrate them into society, nor did they bring strategists and tacticians to integrate into their military structure. They wanted knowledge work, they got knowledge work.
As for the lackluster results, I’m sure you’re familiar with the fact that there was almost zero rocket science happening in the USSR before and during the war. After forcing German scientists to train Soviet scientists, the Soviets developed an exact replica of the V2. I would say that alone demonstrates the success of the program.
But more to the point. They went from zero rocketry to the number two rocket science center in the world. Sure they didn’t beat the Americans to a heavy launcher and the Saturn V became the gold standard. But the Soviets achieved over a dozen milestones before the US did with satellites, manned flights, probes on Venus, etc. If you think going from literally nothing to second place is lackluster, perhaps you have a bias.
They weren’t “prisoners of war”…the war was already over when they were “recruited” at gun-point. They were also civilians, which makes it impossible to call them POW’s unless you are also willing to admit that Russia committed war crimes just by capturing them…
And even if they were active combatants…once the war is over, you’re supposed to let them go…unless they are charged with crimes committed in the act of service. Then they are expected to stand trial for those crimes, where evidence is presented to prove their guilt. That is typically reserved for high ranking officers, or political leaders.
None of that applied to Operation Osoaviakhim. What you are conveniently reframing, is called politically motivated “slave labor”…something the Soviet Union did to even their own citizens, if they refused to cooperate with the State. These people were scientists. None of them committed war crimes. If they had, then they should have stood trial with the rest of them at Nuremberg. But all this happened after those trials were over.
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