Is the implication that ICE and DHS is a domestic enemy? How does that square with the rest of the oath
I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
If those orders are illegal you have a sworn duty to disobey them.
I understand there will be a lengthy court martial and perhaps many will not win. But if we ever get to the point of holding people accountable for all that is going on (and they better hope it’s us and not some outside forces), they will be held as co-conspirators.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents take an official oath of office to support and defend the U.S. Constitution, just like all other federal civil service and law enforcement personnel.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents take an official oath of office to support and defend the U.S. Constitution, just like all other federal civil service and law enforcement personnel.
I’m trying to understand if americans think the military should have a coup or something. I’ve never understood the culture around the military in the States so I was a little surprised to hear this.
I’m not sure anyone is being super serious, and that it’s mostly hopefully or hyperbole. (That’s intended as a neutral statement).
It squares away in the UCMJ. Generic ‘You’ used throughout, below this point:
You are supposed to have the balls/constitution/wherewithal/spine to disobey an order you believe or know to be illegal, despite the harsh automatic penalties that will presume you guilty until innocent for doing so, as you accept those possible consequences as readily as you accept taking an artillery shell for your country.
You are to hold this inhuman (as in, literally against psychological norm) stance deeper than the other stances programmed (with full use of psychological norms) into you in the course of being shaped for military services during training.
Because you are a warrior and are expected to hold yourself to standards far above and beyond those of the common population that you are (on paper, says every military of everywhere really) sacrificing your service for, so they don’t have to.
Does it work?
Eh. Maybe if a standing military was full of the mythical Warrior Poets envisioned by the glories in the marching songs.
They pretty much universally never are, and usually never were except for brief periods fostered by singular individuals as driving forces.
And thus, here we are.
Given what Kegsbreath has been doing to reshape the US military under his toddler level understanding of what a “warrior” is, I wouldn’t expect much of the requisite spine to still be enlisted for service for long.
They exist still, and hopefully the ones that are already out, the ones still in, and their neighbors are doing some common sense mathematics, but that is simply not something that can be expected and accounted for, and historically when things get to that point, it’s a bad time for everyone regardless.
Thank you for the efforts to explain. I think I understand the point people are trying to make with respect to disobeying an order but I didn’t get the connection to the issue in the article or what I interpreted as the other reply suggesting (that the military should/would/could stop ICE/DHS).
I did recently watch a video essay on the Port Chicago disaster and what folks went through after refusing the dangerous work that only Black soldiers were expected to perform. That’s different from than unlawful I guess, and was during wartime (I have no idea if the US is perpetually at war now?) which was used to explain the harshness beyond just plain racism.
I’m not american so I think you might need to explain like I’m 5 if you are willing.
The oath is to protect the country against enemies (domestic and foreign) and obey the president and the chain of command. I read that as the president and chain of command are identifying the enemies and the military is to carry out those orders.
I feel like I’m not understanding what everyone else is seeing. In what situation would individual soldiers decide that other government employees are the enemy unless they receive these orders? I guess I’m not expecting the current admin to say ICE and DHS are enemies?
I mean I don’t think this is a universally American belief, but my point is that they’re pledging their oath to the Constitution and the office of the presidency, but also swearing to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic. Basically the office is what you’re swearing an oath to, the person holding that office is only there temporarily and that person can make themselves an enemy of both the title they hold and the Constitution that rules over all (or is supposed to in a sane world).
Think of it like when you have a substitute teacher or temporary manager, you’re not going to hold them in as high of a regard as someone who’s permanently holding that title or role because they’re just the current placeholder who will be gone before long much like Trump.
And even if people in the military hold similar beliefs, they’re not necessarily protected if they act on it because as our current president shows on a daily basis, the law only has teeth if the people in power want it to, so while someone may think they’re acting within the bounds of the law, there’s nothing to stop a corrupt, criminal administration from throwing the book at them anyway.
Yo, googled that because I didn’t recognize it and is Google okay???
A little quick to jump into the nazi roleplay there…
Unteroffizier Krauze (often spelled Krause) is not a single, real historical figure. Instead, it is a fictional character profile generated for our historical roleplay.The name combines common historical elements:Unteroffizier: A junior non-commissioned officer rank in the German military (equivalent to a Corporal or Sergeant).Krause/Krauze: One of the most common surnames in Germany.While there were real people with similar names—such as Karl Wilhelm Krause, who served as Adolf Hitler’s personal valet, or various real-life soldiers named Krause recorded in military archives—the specific “Unteroffizier Krauze” in the Sturmabteilung (SA) from our conversation is a purely fictional persona.
I hope more people realize this and understand that by “serving” the state you are also protecting ICE.
What a great way to make your trained killers remember their oath to the Constitution to protect against its enemies, both foreign and domestic.
Is the implication that ICE and DHS is a domestic enemy? How does that square with the rest of the oath
If those orders are illegal you have a sworn duty to disobey them.
I understand there will be a lengthy court martial and perhaps many will not win. But if we ever get to the point of holding people accountable for all that is going on (and they better hope it’s us and not some outside forces), they will be held as co-conspirators.
I feel like I am missing something, what orders? I know I mentioned ICE in my reply but it was in a general sense, like ICE is part of the US.
Orders to arrest and detain US citizens without due process if they aren’t white enough.
The US military is ordered to do this?
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents take an official oath of office to support and defend the U.S. Constitution, just like all other federal civil service and law enforcement personnel.
Thank you, I didn’t know that! A civil servants, eh? Damn there are a lot of people who think what is going on is fine, actually 😬
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents take an official oath of office to support and defend the U.S. Constitution, just like all other federal civil service and law enforcement personnel.
You were just talking about ICE.
Okay Grandpa, time to get you to bed.
Yes, I said the US military protects ICE. But the thread you are replying to is about the enlistment oath for the military. Is ICE military?
Orders to fire on shipwreck survivors for a recent real world example.
…meaning you’re not supposed to obey unlawful orders, which includes anything that violates the US Constitution or the Geneva Convention…
What are the unlawful orders though? That’s the part I’m not understanding…
If you think ICE and DHS haven’t violated the constitution multiple times over at this point, then you need to pay more attention…
I’m not american.
I’m trying to understand if americans think the military should have a coup or something. I’ve never understood the culture around the military in the States so I was a little surprised to hear this.
I’m not sure anyone is being super serious, and that it’s mostly hopefully or hyperbole. (That’s intended as a neutral statement).
It squares away in the UCMJ. Generic ‘You’ used throughout, below this point:
You are supposed to have the balls/constitution/wherewithal/spine to disobey an order you believe or know to be illegal, despite the harsh automatic penalties that will presume you guilty until innocent for doing so, as you accept those possible consequences as readily as you accept taking an artillery shell for your country.
You are to hold this inhuman (as in, literally against psychological norm) stance deeper than the other stances programmed (with full use of psychological norms) into you in the course of being shaped for military services during training.
Because you are a warrior and are expected to hold yourself to standards far above and beyond those of the common population that you are (on paper, says every military of everywhere really) sacrificing your service for, so they don’t have to.
Does it work?
Eh. Maybe if a standing military was full of the mythical Warrior Poets envisioned by the glories in the marching songs.
They pretty much universally never are, and usually never were except for brief periods fostered by singular individuals as driving forces.
And thus, here we are.
Given what Kegsbreath has been doing to reshape the US military under his toddler level understanding of what a “warrior” is, I wouldn’t expect much of the requisite spine to still be enlisted for service for long.
They exist still, and hopefully the ones that are already out, the ones still in, and their neighbors are doing some common sense mathematics, but that is simply not something that can be expected and accounted for, and historically when things get to that point, it’s a bad time for everyone regardless.
Thank you for the efforts to explain. I think I understand the point people are trying to make with respect to disobeying an order but I didn’t get the connection to the issue in the article or what I interpreted as the other reply suggesting (that the military should/would/could stop ICE/DHS).
I did recently watch a video essay on the Port Chicago disaster and what folks went through after refusing the dangerous work that only Black soldiers were expected to perform. That’s different from than unlawful I guess, and was during wartime (I have no idea if the US is perpetually at war now?) which was used to explain the harshness beyond just plain racism.
It squares because the Constitution is supposed to be the supreme law of the land. The people currently occupying these offices come and go.
I’m not american so I think you might need to explain like I’m 5 if you are willing.
The oath is to protect the country against enemies (domestic and foreign) and obey the president and the chain of command. I read that as the president and chain of command are identifying the enemies and the military is to carry out those orders.
I feel like I’m not understanding what everyone else is seeing. In what situation would individual soldiers decide that other government employees are the enemy unless they receive these orders? I guess I’m not expecting the current admin to say ICE and DHS are enemies?
I mean I don’t think this is a universally American belief, but my point is that they’re pledging their oath to the Constitution and the office of the presidency, but also swearing to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic. Basically the office is what you’re swearing an oath to, the person holding that office is only there temporarily and that person can make themselves an enemy of both the title they hold and the Constitution that rules over all (or is supposed to in a sane world).
Think of it like when you have a substitute teacher or temporary manager, you’re not going to hold them in as high of a regard as someone who’s permanently holding that title or role because they’re just the current placeholder who will be gone before long much like Trump.
And even if people in the military hold similar beliefs, they’re not necessarily protected if they act on it because as our current president shows on a daily basis, the law only has teeth if the people in power want it to, so while someone may think they’re acting within the bounds of the law, there’s nothing to stop a corrupt, criminal administration from throwing the book at them anyway.
If only we could get people to understand that the US military has been the global “ICE” for decades.
ICE is nothing more than Imperialism turned inward.
I’m old and jaded, but I hope these big dreams come true, comrade.
Me too, but I’ll keep trying.
“Yes, YOU are in the Sturmabteilung, Unteroffizier Krauze. But is your family? Think long and hard about that, Krauze.”
Yo, googled that because I didn’t recognize it and is Google okay???
A little quick to jump into the nazi roleplay there…
What the actual fuck?
Would you like me to explain it to you? I swear I can do it better than any AI if you just ask me.
Sure, thanks! I am sure you have figured out that I understand the general context just not the specific reference. 😅
You are right, I understand. Sorry if I sounded harsh.
Comments are getting over 100 upvotes regularly now. Lemmy is growing.