• gwl [he/him]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    18 hours ago

    This fucking “fact” again

    It’s simply not true.

    Fifth Grade Literacy is not “bad at reading”, it’s literally just defined as “misses subtext and tends towards a literal reading, can see subtext on additional reads or with prompting”

  • Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    22
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    2 days ago

    I agree with the sentiment but don’t agree that literacy is that important to revolutions throughout history. Most of the foot soldiers in a revolution were illiterate, don’t need a book to understand the people at the top are taking all your money with rent and taxes and giving you nothing in return.

    The women marching on Versailles and the sans cullotes marching in the street weren’t marching because they read a book, they were marching because they needed bread and knew the ruling monarchy and aristocracy weren’t fulfilling that need.

    Class consciousness is not dependent on literacy.

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 day ago

      This idea that the only condition necessary for (successful) revolution is for conditions to get bad enough, ignores the fact that conditions have been extremely shitty for large numbers of people for long stretches of time. There have been plenty of people suffering under colonialism or slavery, and even without that, people in the past were much poorer in general.

      Mismanagement and abuse by the king and aristocracy was by no means a new thing. All across Europe, throughout the middle ages, kings got into long, bloody, expensive conflicts that left them unable to pay their debts. The solution, generally speaking, was to blame the resulting problems on Jews and use them as a scapegoat to cancel the government’s debts and expel them from the country, seizing whatever assets they had in the process. Or just don’t pay your soldiers what they were promised, which happened often (in spite of the risks). In the meantime, of course, you remind everyone that they will get to enjoy eternal paradise, but only if they accept their lot peacefully.

      The French Revolution started because the king got involved in a very expensive conflict, the American Revolution, which created a debt crisis. That part was nothing new. What was new was that the bourgeoisie class had developed substantially and possessed much greater wealth and power than they ever had before. Furthermore, literacy allowed people to question the narratives that had previously kept them loyal and passive. They weren’t going to accept, “We can’t pay you what we promised, sorry, the Jews did it” and they had sufficient power to back it up.

      Crucially, it also allowed for communication and unity between the politicians of the National Assembly and rural peasants. Without that, rural peasants might see them as persuing their own aims in a way unconnected from their own problems (and contrary to their traditional beliefs and values). This would in turn discredit the National Assembly and make it harder to see them as representing anyone or negotiating with any power behind them.

      “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” If you lack imagination to think of a way things could be different (and how to get there), then you will only double down on the frameworks and solutions the system provides you with. Prayer, racial scapegoating, etc, no matter how illogical they may seem from the outside, without literacy, the only solutions you’re likely to find are the ones based on things you already believe.

    • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 days ago

      I found a paper that seems to be arguing that you’re right about motive, but that the literate French revolutionaries were smarter about it:

      It has been widely argued that the growth of mass literacy is critical for the development of modern forms of contentious politics. Recent Scholarship, however, has challenged this view. This study explores the relationship between levels of literacy in rural France toward the end of 18th century and the extent and nature of peasant mobilization at the beginning of the French Revolution. It is found that literacy did not promote rural disturbances as such but that the forms and targets of peasant actions in the more literate areas difered from those in the less literate. The less literate districts were notable for mobilization against rumored but nonexistent invasions, whereas the most literate districts nurtured attacks on the central social institutions of the Old Regime.

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        2 days ago

        The less literate districts were notable for mobilization against rumored but nonexistent invasions, whereas the most literate districts nurtured attacks on the central social institutions of the Old Regime.

        “Mobilizing against rumored invasions” doesn’t exactly sound revolutionary. Isn’t “attacking the central social institutions of the Old Regime” kind of… what a revolution is?

        • JustAnotherPodunk@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          1 day ago

          Sounds like “propaganda works better to mobilize the illiterate, for better or worse”

          And that tracks. With modern methods and lawmaking to incrementally increase societal illiteracy coupled with an obscene level of increased propaganda, the tools that worked for revolution are turning instead to bolster power for those literate few in power.

          A dumber electorate. That’s what’s happening and that’s the goal. The revolution got hijacked. And it’s working amazingly well unfortunately.

          • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            1 day ago

            Sounds like “propaganda works better to mobilize the illiterate, for better or worse”

            Not really what it’s saying, both literate and illiterate areas mobilized.

  • PNW_Doug@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    31
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    2 days ago

    While truly concerning, it seems important to define a fifth grade level. By the time I was in fifth grade, I’d already read the Lord of the Rings, so my fifth-grade reading level was doing pretty well, lol.

    Still, the point stands, I know.

    • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      27
      ·
      2 days ago

      Luckily to clear up any self-bragging confusion, test scores and thus literacy, are standardized through tests (primarily written and distributed by McGraw-Hill, which was founded by Ghislaine Maxwell’s [yes Epstein’s Ghislaine Maxwell] Father.)

      That totally normal fact aside, the general measurement is reading speed across age-appropriate ‘Lexile’ levels, which is an annoying complex metric assigned to various texts based on grammar, word count, word complexity, complexity of the plot(s), and kinda general vibe.

      The Hobbit is 1000L, which is the middle of a 5th grade reading level. Pretty much any fifth grade student, theoretically, should be able to read The Hobbit with little to no trouble nor the need to look up additional words; at around 130 words per minute.

      For some other fun examples, Twilight is 720L (3rd grade reading level), Robinson Crusoe is 1360L (at least 7th grade), The Lord of the Rings Trilogy ranges from 810-920L (4th grade reading level, so good brag) and War and Peace, shockingly, is only 1180L.

      • Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        11 hours ago

        Second question, what’s “third grade” for you?

        In france it’s like 15-16 (they count backwards too so second comes after third), in Sweden it’s like 9-10.

        • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          6 hours ago

          In the US grades are (usually) the following:

          Pre-Kindergarten (not all Americans attend this): 3-5 years old Kindergarten: 4-6 years old Elementary school is 1st-5th grade. 1st grade: 5-7 years old … 3rd grade: 8-10 years old … ‘Middle School’ or 'Junior high is 6th-8th grade. 6th usually is 11-13 years old and High school is 9th-12th grade. we typically end with 12th grade at 17-18 years old

          These are general ranges as it does vary from state to state with allowances for birthdays and advanced placement (i.e. in many places you can test out of or into various grades), but the general idea is (except pre-K) you spend 12 years between 5 years old to 17 years old in grades 1-12. That plus kindergarten are all that’s fully paid for as far as public education goes.

        • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          6 hours ago

          Umberto Ecos

          The only work by Eco that is graded is Serendipities at 1480L, this would be somewhere in high school (as early as 9th grade reading level for AP/Advanced students, up to 12th grade for average students.)

          Dostoevsky

          Only around 700-800L, shockingly. The English translation of Crime and Punishment isn’t considered that advanced apparently. I personally wouldn’t think it’s on the same level as Twilight, but that is what the American education system feels about it.

    • ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      1 day ago

      I also read Lord of the Rings at that age. Unfortunately, I thought “Middle Earth” meant everything was happening in the middle of the planet, i.e. at its center, so I thought all the scenes were happening in giant caves and that was how I imagined the book. When the movie came out (I mean the animated one in the '70s) I was like “why the fuck is everybody outside?”

    • Maeve@kbin.earth
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      2 days ago

      While my parents were certainly problematic (which for quite some time led to myself being problematic), one of the things for which I’m ever grateful is that, in addition to my primary caregiver reading to us kids while our parents were working/partying/otherwise occupied with things other than parenting, my own parents provided me with books, scores of them, and also took me on road trips, making a game of reading signs, billboards, vanity plates. They also made me look up spellings and meanings in the appropriate, hardcopy reference books. I struggled with some schoolwork, but reading was always truly a pleasure.

    • ArgentRaven@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      2 days ago

      I seem to remember in school taking Iowa tests that then would tell you your reading level, regardless of your actual grade level. I’m sure yours was high school/college level to read LotR in 5th and not get bored!

      • Chloé 🥕@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        13
        ·
        2 days ago

        i read all of marx & lenin before leaving my mother’s womb.

        frankly, if you don’t at least master the basics of dialectal materialism by the time you reach 3 months, you’re a fucking embarrassment.

        /j

        • Zier@fedia.io
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          8
          ·
          2 days ago

          3 months??? After 10 days of sentience in the womb I had a masters degree. Keep up people!!

        • bootstrap@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          2 days ago

          I read all of lemmy before I even developed eyes.

          Do I have to put /j on this one for people to get it? Doesnt seem like the first one was obvious enough

  • TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    15
    ·
    2 days ago

    It varies from state to state. Most states are well above the global average literacy rate. 13 states are below the global average. Some are well below. The states with the four lowest average literacy rates are the four most populous states: California, Texas, Florida and New York. It’s likely that there is significant variance within each of these states, likely correlated with socioeconomic status.

  • Godric@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 day ago

    This has me thinking about how an institute is like a .org: sounds official, means zero

  • MissesAutumnRains@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    10
    ·
    2 days ago

    I think I would argue it’s just education in general, but literacy is such an easy measure to draw that from. The reason I would make it a broader statement like education is because things like LLMs and brainrot short-form content destroy critical thinking and attention spans as well, which I would also argue would be key for any revolution.

    • Zier@fedia.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      12
      ·
      2 days ago

      Literacy is not just about reading, it’s also about getting people interested in learning. That’s how we expand our vocabulary and understand language. Teaching someone to be proactive in their language learning prompts people to look for factual definitions & answers. Most people do not read propaganda & lies, they usually just repeat what someone else has said. The only people reading that are the ones searching for confirmation bias of their conspiracy theories (911, UFOs, bigfoot, etc.). This is why fox news is so popular with low information conservatives, or talk radio even. It’s just a passive consumption of lies that they can get ‘angry’ about.

      • fiat_lux 🆕 🏠@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        11 hours ago

        Those are literacy rates, which are distinct from literacy proficiency levels.

        From your link:

        Literacy rates display the % of adults ages 15 and above who can both read and write with understanding a short simple statement about their everyday life.

        That definition corresponds roughly to the Programme for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies’ definition of being below the lowest level:

        At Level 1, they can understand short texts and organised lists when information is clearly indicated, find specific information and identify relevant links. Those below Level 1 can at most understand short, simple sentences.
        OECD Survey of Adults Skills 2023: United States

        Overall, people overestimate average literacy levels. The US is slightly worse than the OECD average of 26% of adults at Level 1 or below. Even in the highest performing country, Finland, 12% of adults meet that definition.

    • CosmicTurtle0 [he/him]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      2 days ago

      I remember reading in the CIA World Book that North Korea has a near 100% literacy rate.

      My understanding is that Norway also has a 100% literacy rate. I mean, apples and oranges as to why.

        • Mantzy81@aussie.zone
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          2 days ago

          There’s a big difference between liking the cage you’re in and not realising you’re in a cage

          • FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            2 days ago

            There’s also the global freedom index

            I really enjoy rubbing it in the faces of conservative 'Muricans, or idiots in my country who crow about how the US is the “land of the free”

            • gdog05@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 day ago

              You’d think it would matter, but it doesn’t. Reality is not the flex it should be. They live in delusion (hence why many Republican men think Trump could beat them in a fight). They have layer upon layer of cognitive dissonance and though they constantly discuss things that are fact -based like the facts matter, the facts really don’t matter to them.

            • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              2 days ago

              Compulsory education provided to all people is a communist staple, to the point right-wingers tend to point to this fact as to why the US shouldn’t fund public education, since that’s communism.

              NK under went the single largest reduction in population of any country in world history during the war, thanks to the ridiculously violent and thorough bombing campaign from the invaders in the south. This massive reduction in population plus total state control of remote villages for security (due to constant incursions from the South necessitating security in all remote areas) means getting supplies to those areas becomes a priority, and there aren’t many supplies needed to accomplish goals like the massive education and literacy programs of the 1970s and 80s that, for a time, accelerated past China’s own accomplishments, and by percentage of population beat the USSR’s record.

              Or, if you want the neoliberal explanation, it is easier to brainwash those poor wittle villwagers if they can read the pwopaganda and not just listen to it.

              • Kairos@lemmy.today
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                8
                ·
                2 days ago

                It’s not possible to hit 100% without lying

                Do you think the children in labor camps because their grandparent did something can read as well?

                • vagrancyand@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  2 days ago

                  A) It’s perfectly possible, Literacy rates are generalized to adult populations, if you teach every single child reported as being alive to read, then every single child you have accounted for will be able to read. Is it possible there are feral children in the woods of North Korea that exist? Sure. Is it possible there are some 90+ year old deserters living in the mountains of NK that never learned how to read under the imperial government? Sure. Is it likely? No, not really.

                  B) Fun fact with those ‘labor camps’ (aka prisons on par with the US, not a high bar, sure, but on par with them.) No evidence has ever been found by UN investigators that ‘generational’ punishment has happened. Ever. Not one single survivor has testified to this under oath in international court. Not one single log book has ever been found, not one single visit to the prisons has ever revealed this. This is mostly a myth created by the South Korean Government, who pays defectors for life (or imprisons them for life) depending on how willing they are to tell stories about their life to international media. The defectors that disagree with the SK narrative are usually imprisoned for life (legally they are all enemy combatants/rebels according to SK law, even the civilians, they have no rights). The ones that agree get media contracts they have to fulfill, or its off to jail. This is often why their stories are so over the top and make no logical sense.

                  See: Yeonmi Park as an example of someone whose entire life story has been debunked multiple times, and who has become a meme because of how incredibly easy it is to debunk any thing she has ever stated about North or South Korea. I mean the lady literally said it’s illegal to criticize the North Korean Government in South Korea…

          • Kairos@lemmy.today
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            2 days ago

            Not really a source just a bunch of numbers. I don’t have any confidence that however these numbers are gathered isn’t done the same way as test scores.

            • FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              2 days ago

              There’s the small matter of the fact that there is no evidence that will satisfy you, because you’re not actually open to having your opinion changed

              Your lack of punctuation also makes me inclined to believe that you’re one of the people at the lower end of the literacy curve, so I doubt you’re worth engaging with

              • Kairos@lemmy.today
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                2 days ago

                I don’t really have an opinion. I don’t know where the numbers are actually at. I just understand how easy it is to lie with statistics. The U.S. is low on the list in test scores because it actually educates all children until adulthood. Europe’s are higher because they don’t let students who don’t score well on tests take them.

                Also my grammar is fine fuck you.

                • FistingEnthusiast@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  6
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  2 days ago

                  Europe stops kids from taking tests?

                  All of “Europe”?

                  Like it’s one, monolithic, place?

                  You’re an idiot. One with poor punctuation and grammar too.

  • FrankLaskey@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    2 days ago

    Sad but true. Also, this is the first I’m hearing about the Hampton Institute. They sound interesting and their namesake was certainly inspiring. Seems like maybe they are not that active anymore though? I can’t find anything published on their website in the last 9 months or so. Anyone know anything more about them?