So Goodall’s argument is that 1000x more civilian murders is reduced to equivalence because that’s just the cost of colonization, which he supports?
?…
Oof.
This Goodall guys a bitch has to turn down Hasan volume and pretend the be a better than thou person for saying murder is bad
Damn, hasan posted on lemmy. This marks the official downfall, boys
To be fair, I do think Hamas’s attack on Israeli civilians in 2023 was completely wrong.
And yes I think Israel’s bombings of Gaza have been completely wrong, and their efforts to further colonise the West Bank are completely wrong, and their withholding food and medicine from Gaza are completely wrong, etc.
Surely the best thing would be a new peace process. The US has the power to kickstart a new peace process, but of course Trump has no interest in a just peace.
To be fair, I do think Hamas’s attack on Israeli civilians in 2023 was completely wrong.
Why? Should Palestinians die in their concentration camp while doing nothing about it?
I don’t think it’s right to attack civilians. If Hamas wants to destroy Israeli military equipment then fair enough, I could see a case for that.
Plenty of people dislike US military interventions (for good reasons) - does that mean it would be right to kill US civilians in return? I don’t think so. Some civilians might support the worst actions of their government, but other civilians don’t at all.
I don’t think it’s right to attack civilians. If Hamas wants to destroy Israeli military equipment then fair enough, I could see a case for that.
You mean like they did on October 7 where they attacked military bases around the Gaza concentration camp
They also killed Israeli civilians and I don’t think it’s right to kill civilians, whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian civilians, Jewish or Muslim, or anyone else.
Obviously Palestinians are underdogs against Israel, and I think what Israel is currently doing to Palestine is terrible and wrong. I still don’t think killing civilians is a good answer to that problem though.
Not a justification, but one of the problems with Israeli conscription laws is that service is mandatory, and everyone who serves is obligated to be a reservist until the age of 40 and even 50 depending.
It gets real hard to distinguish if any given individuals in Israel are one of the limited populations exempted from serving in the IDF.
It seems some people refuse to serve, and sure such people might be rare, but they may still exist. And you might have someone who served in the IDF because they had to, but afterwards they have campaigned for an end to compulsory IDF service, and for Israel to recognise Palestine, etc. So I just think it’s wrong to harm civilians.
Its been very well proven Israel slaughtered many of its own citizens that day, not Hamas.
I think Al Jazeera is known to be critical of Israel right? And they have said that Hamas killed civilians in the October 2023 attack:
Anyway, I hope Palestinians can live in peace without Israel murdering Palestinians, and without Israelis taking Palestinian land, etc. I hope everyone in that area can live in peace and with equal rights. I don’t approve of any killings of civilians, whether it’s by Hamas or Israel. Some people say “Israel has killed far more civilians than Hamas has, since October 2023”, and yes that’s very likely true, but that doesn’t mean Hamas killed no civilians.
During the Holocaust you would have always made sure to chide anyone condemning it by pointing out that the Jewish resistance killed civilians too
“Both the Nazi occupation of Poland and the Warsaw ghetto uprising are completely wrong! What we need is a new peace process between the Nazis and Jews”
If a resistance movement is hitting military targets then I think that is understandable. I just don’t think it’s right to harm civilians.
If you look at Nazi Germany and Poland, yes the Nazis were evil, and were defeated. Today Germany and Poland have good neighbourly relations. Similarly, I hope Israel’s evil extremist government falls, after which Israel and Palestine might hopefully live in peace.
If a resistance movement is hitting military targets then I think that is understandable. I just don’t think it’s right to harm civilians.
The Polish resistance absolutely harmed civilians, yet for some reason you’re not condemning them as evil, you reserve that for non-white residence groups.
Nazis were evil, and were defeated
Oh really? They were defeated? The solution wasn’t a “peace process”? Could you at least try to hide your massive double standard.
Similarly, I hope Israel’s evil extremist government falls,
Israel’s government is entirely centrist by Israeli standards, and is only behaving the same way every Israeli administration has for its entire existence. The only people trying to paint it as “extremist” are closet Zionists trying to scapegoat all of Israel’s evil onto Netanyahu, so that when he’s out of power they can insist everything is fine now and Israel can go back to ethnic cleansing in peace.
after which Israel and Palestine might hopefully live in peace.
Ah yes, just peaceful apartheid occupation and ethnic cleansing.
The Polish resistance absolutely harmed civilians, yet for some reason you’re not condemning them as evil, you reserve that for non-white residence groups.
If they harmed civilians then that is also wrong, obviously. Ethnicity has nothing to do with this. I think harming civilians is wrong.
Oh really? They were defeated?
If Hamas wants to try to defeat Israel’s government then that’s one thing, but harming civilians is another thing. I’m saying that I think it’s wrong to harm civilians.
Israel’s government is entirely centrist by Israeli standards
I don’t think that’s true. Netanyahu’s party is right-wing and the parties in his coalition are far-right. It seems there are more progressive politicians in Israel like Yair Golan who apparently supports “a two-state solution” and “ending the occupation of the Palestinian territories”.
peaceful apartheid occupation and ethnic cleansing
I don’t support apartheid, or occupation, or ethnic cleansing. What I’m saying is that I hope everyone in the Israel/Palestine area can live in peace, whether they are Jewish, Muslim, or anything else. But yes Israel’s actions are obviously preventing this.
If they harmed civilians then that is also wrong, obviously. Ethnicity has nothing to do with this. I think harming civilians is wrong.
So you agree, during the Holocaust you would have been saying "Both the Nazi occupation of Poland and the Warsaw ghetto uprising are completely wrong! What we need is a new peace process between the Nazis and Jews”
If Hamas wants to try to defeat Israel’s government then that’s one thing, but harming civilians is another thing.
Famously no civilians killed defeating the Nazis, you dishonest Zionist.
I’m saying that I think it’s wrong to harm civilians.
No, you dishonest Zionist, you said that there should be a “new peace process”, ie, defeating the Nazis was good, but Israel should be appeased.
I don’t think that’s true.
Then you’re a historically illiterate moron who has no business talking on the matter. Or, more likely, you’re lying.
Netanyahu’s party is right-wing and the parties in his coalition are far-right.
Every party in the Israeli government is far right wing except for the Palestinian ones, who the opposition were so completely unwilling to work with that they let Netanyahu have control.
It seems there are more progressive politicians in Israel like Yair Golan who apparently supports “a two-state solution” and “ending the occupation of the Palestinian territories”.
You dishonest piece of shit. Yair is a far right ethno fascist who openly endorsed the greater Israel project and supports corralling Palestinians into a handful of Israeli controlled Bantustans and “ending the occupation” by annexing the territories. Be fucking honest, what you want is an Israeli government that has all the same policies as Netanyahu (and all previous governments), but coaches it in mild, centrist platitudes to make it palatable to meek liberal Zionists, again, just like all previous governments. Who do you think is going to still buy this shit? “Oh it’s just Netanyahu, most of the Kennesset wants a two state solution, (don’t ask why every Israeli government in history has expanded settlements and activity sabotaged the possibility of a Palestinian state).”
The only people still talking about a “two state solution” are people who have not done a shred of reading on the subject (and thus shouldn’t be giving their opinions) and people who know damn well that the possibility of a two state solution is stone dead at Israel’s hand, and thus they can feign support for it without having to worry about it getting in the way of what they actually want; the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
I don’t support apartheid, or occupation, or ethnic cleansing
Yes you do, in every way that actually matters.
What I’m saying is that I hope everyone in the Israel/Palestine area can live in peace
“I’m just saying I hope everyone in Rhodesia can live in peace!”
But yes Israel’s actions are obviously preventing this.
And you oppose stopping them. Once again, your position is “I support Israel and oppose its enemies, but it would be nice if it chose to be less brutal.”
You’ve replied to me a lot. If you don’t like what I’m saying then okay. What I’m saying is that I think killing civilians is wrong, and that’s actually why I think Israel’s actions are so bad.
If you think my comments aren’t good enough then okay. We will just have different perspectives.
What I’m saying is that I think killing civilians is wrong
Unless it’s being done by respectable liberal Zionists, of course
Hassan never denied that the murder of civilians during october 7 is wrong
Yeah fair enough. I think Hamas and Israel are both run by bad people with blood on their hands, although yes it looks like Israel currently has more blood on their hands, since they have killed far more civilians since October 2023 than Hamas has.
Do you think hamas still have the right to fight the colonial army despite the attrocities they commited?
I think if they were fighting the IDF and not harming civilians that would be better. And I also think things would be better if Israel were to stop harming Palestinian civilians, stop colonising the West Bank, recognise the state of Palestine, and have productive relations with Palestine.
It was a yes or no question. Does hamas lose the right to resist colonization by targetting the occupation force because of the atrrocities it commited during october 7?
Okay I will answer the question differently. No I don’t think Hamas does “lose the right to resist” because of Hamas killing civilians. But I still think killing civilians is wrong, and preferably war crimes (such as harming civilians) should have legal consequences, whether those crimes are committed by Israelis, or Palestinians, or anybody.
Edit: just to clarify, when it comes to “the right to resist”, I don’t think that includes the right to harm civilians. But if Hamas were to attack IDF infrastructure and try to push the IDF out of Palestine then I could see the case for that. If it’s acceptable for Israel to use weapons to defend Israeli territory then it should be equally acceptable for Palestinians to use weapons to defend Palestinian territory.
I guess we agree. I believe hamas shoulf be handle accountable after occupation end not before
It’s all Palestinian territory
“I condemn all effective militant resistance against Nazi Germany, but I also think it would be nice if Nazi Germany stopped being so mean and behaved itself! I’m a sensible moderate!”
I condemn all effective militant resistance
No I’m not saying that. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s right to harm civilians specifically.
Which militant resistance group defending Palestine don’t you condemn?
Saying you condemn Israel but also all militant resistance against Israel is just saying you support Israel.
I’m saying that I don’t think it’s right to harm civilians, whether it’s Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, or any other civilians. I don’t support Israel’s current extremist government.
I’m saying that I don’t think it’s right to harm civilians
So if you were alive during the Holocaust would you be making sure to butt into discussions about Nazi crimes to go on about how you also condemn the Warsaw ghetto uprising? Because that’s basically exactly what you’re doing here.
I don’t support Israel’s current extremist government.
Implying you do support their previous genocidal apartheid governments. Apparently harming civilians is ok so long as the oppressor is doing it.
It’s abundantly obvious that you support Israel but think open mask off Zionism damages its public image.
So if you were alive during the Holocaust would you be making sure to butt into discussions about Nazi crimes to go on about how you also condemn the Warsaw ghetto uprising?
Maybe I would have if that uprising had indiscriminately shot at German civilians, who may have been people who didn’t support the Nazis at all.
If Hamas had been going after the IDF then fair enough, I can see why they would do that. I just don’t think harming civilians is right.
It’s abundantly obvious that you support Israel
I definitely don’t support their genocide of Palestinians.
Maybe I would have if that uprising had indiscriminately shot at German civilians, who may have been people who didn’t support the Nazis at all.
The Polish resistance absolutely killed civilians, and Hamas absolutely didn’t “indiscriminately” shoot civilians. You’re once again making it extremely obvious that you’re a Zionist being dishonest, otherwise you wouldn’t be reproducing their propaganda.
I definitely don’t support their genocide of Palestinians.
Lol, least obvious Zionist. And even this isn’t true, given you’ve said you supported previous administrations genocides
The absolute cope of him not being able to admit Israel is doing terrorism and genocide. That man is trying very hard to square the facts of reality with not being fired from the BBC
I wonder if the host would have a problem if Hassan say the axis was a lot worse than the allies during world war 2
“Well you see it’s all quite complicated. Do you condemn the Warsaw Ghetto terrorist attacks? Germans have a right to self defense, no?”
- Lewis Goodall, probably